Creative Ideas

The Death Penalty: An Email Debate

Case 6

The Death Penalty: An Email Debate

Death Penalty Letter Case Number

This is a record of the emails exchanged between DB, another, DG and myself. I did not manage to keep them all "in line" but nonetheless the presentation of the arguments can be useful to those needing to argue the point. What follows are the exchanges we had. Except for my response to the first letter, I included the complete text of his letters in mine, as I would respond to each section of his in my replies Dan Brady.

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The initializing letter: from DG

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On 1/11/08 9:48 AM, "DG wrote:

Look another monster you will not doubt fight for his rights:

http://www.local6.com/news/15027996/detail.html

you people make me sick to my stomach, I hope there is a special hell for you un moral heartless, soulless monsters who fight for these monsters.

On Jan 9, 2008 12:23 PM, DG wrote:

Join, never, it is people and organizations like you who let these monsters get off free:

http://www.nbc15online.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=e7f4080a-120e-4d5b-9b23-3ae4c70efd84

How can you read a story like that and with a heart, say this guy still deserves to live. I am a father of 3 and when I see these stories I want to cry, cause i know there will be organizations like yours fighting for these monsters lifes, what about those innocent babies, right now I want to cry, how can you people be so cold and heartless to fight for the evil and spit on the innocent.

I do not think God himself would let monsters like this live and if would I choose to go to hell in my after life.

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DB's response to the initializing letter:

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Since you do not know how to write and proceed directly to insult, derision, name calling and such like, rather than use any sort of civil approach and it is a Friday after a long week, I have chosen to respond in kind:

Dear Jackass

If you would use your heart or brain, oh, wait, maybe you don't have either of those organs or, if you do, maybe the are simply corruption ridden and degraded by degenerate diseases.

But, like I say, dear jackass, crippled morons, such as yourself, whose only claim to humanity would have to be that a couple of humans must have had sex, do not process well.

Your "letter" implies that I am "fighting for these monsters" I am not fighting anything or anyone. I do not like the death penalty because, dear dimbulb, it does not work. For example, you idiot, Killing this other jackass would not bring the child back, would it?

Do you think, in your addled brain, that I approve of his behavior? That I would have him wandering the streets? Do you? Is that what you think? Oh, exCUSE me, you don't do that. Well?

You accuse me of "spitting on the innocent'. You, I suppose, approve of the killing of innocents or don't you read the data which PROVE that many persons have been executed who did NOT commit the crime they were accused of. Do you weep for them?

Now, think for a minute, oh, I'm sorry you may not be used to that, but TRY!

You think he should be killed. Fine. So look at what that means, first a trial, actually several trials and maybe a few appeals. So the citizens spend, on average 1.5 million to 2 million dollars. Then the guy is imprisoned for at least a few years at about 30 thousand a year. Finally, if you had your way, he's executed.

But does he really pay for what he did? No. Society does and through the god damned nose what with all the stupid damned lawyers willing to make a buck fighting for the monsters you hate so much.

He simply takes the "long nap". No pain and certainly no damned gain.

What is commonly done, if he is not executed that is, is that he stays in prison for decades, lets say and dies there, again if he lives for 40 or 50 years we are talking about the same cost as the trial process and execution.

Again, he does not bear the cost of his crime. He does not pay. Citizens pay and again they do it through the nose.

What the current system never does, cannot seem to consider doing, won't do - is force that person to make full restitution and full amelioration for the crime committed.

What that would mean, in this case, might be something like this: the man would live. His crime would be public and follow him wherever he went. He'd have to work his whole damned life and donate his earnings to charities that worked with children. He'd be employed, earning money, living and constantly being reminded of his crime and never get a chance to "live a free and happy life" until he's paid back all the damages: the cost of the trial, the cost of the arrest, the counseling for anyone traumatized by his act, his counseling for getting his "act together" and then, he'd be eligible for parole only when all persons involved with the matter agree that he has a chance to try.

Death is the easy way out. I propose a lifetime of forced servitude such that this person would not have a chance at freedom until such time as he has literally paid his debt to society.

Now, I don't usually talk about what my alternative to capital punishment is, because it is somewhat at odds with the practices of law and legality, as we now know them.

But the point is that death is to damn easy. Look at Tim McVeigh. All he had to do was shut up and let them put him to sleep. He never had to face the hundreds of grieving, mourning people who, in my mind, should have been allowed to face him and vent. He did not have to pay for anything he did. All he had to do was wait until they slipped the needle in.

Anyway, that's all I have to say.

And I'll close with spitting back to you your own words: you people make me sick to my stomach; I hope there is a special hell for you amoral heartless, soulless monsters.

Regards, Michelle and Phillipa

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Letter number two, in the exchange my replies interspersed with the text of his email. In this one he begins to include my text in his email, so it gets a bit confusing but I've delineated who is speaking and when.

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Dear Dimbulb … Please try to read on:

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On 1/14/08 8:30 AM, DG wrote:

One more thing, quoting my own letter, you wrote this:

You think he should be killed. Fine. So look at what that means, first a trial, actually several trials and maybe a few appeals. So the citizens spend, on average 1.5 million to 2 million dollars. Then he guy is imprisoned for at least a few years at about 30 thousand a year. Finally, if you had your way, he's executed.

That along shows what type of person you are, you think I care how much money or taxes I have to spend if these monsters are getting what they deserve, you think money is really an issue here?

That is most of the organizations like yours main argument "it is to expensive", that shows how heartless you all really are, what kind of human, what kind of parent puts money as an issue over a childs life? WHAT FUCKING KIND? sorry for that, but that comment really pisses me off. So let the monster spend his time in jail, eventually he is set free, which you know will happen 7 / 10 cases and then he commits another murder. All because we wanted to save a dollar. This is not fing WALMART, it is innocent people and childrens lives here. I really cannot believe the type of people who would put a dollar value on the protection of our children, wow what a world we live in.

DB's reply:

YOU think of only your opinion. YOU don't care about the cost of the trials. I don't. Since this government of ours wastes it by the billions. But OTHERS do. People who complain about the death penalty, as YOU do, often complain about the cost of the trials and all that. I was just covering that base because those in favor of the death penalty have often brought up that aspect of it all as a complaint. I was trying to use their common argument against you

So that comment you quoted does not show what kind of person I am, it shows what kind of persons you are because you have associated yourself with them by being ignorantly in favor of a failed legal procedure are because they are the ones that raise that issue over and over and over.

Then you idiotically continue with further stupidity and flagrant ignorance: by saying that cost is a main argument, it is not. If you read anything I have written the main argument,

dearest dumbbell, is that the death penalty DOES NOT WORK. It does not lower murder rates, prevent crimes or achieve any real success in law enforcement.

You have two new children, you should be aware of the world and how it works. If your thinking is this muddy well, I only hope that they manage despite that. Research, over 50 years of it, point to some pretty basic facts, capital punishment does not perform the function that it is intended to do.

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Then DG tosses in:

Wow, shows the ignorance that runs these organizations, first off I have done many hrs of research, being that I am a new father of 2 baby girls, your life changes and you see things in more perspective, for instance this world is going to shit, and organizations with people like you are just pushing it along.

Read this article if you have the time to pay some respect to the victims who have basically been spit on: http://www.wesleylowe.com/cp.html

http://www.wesleylowe.com/cp.html

DB's reply:

So I go to the site and look at the very first set of statistics:

"During the temporary suspension on capital punishment from 1972-1976, researchers gathered murder statistics across the country. In 1960, there were 56 executions in the USA and 9,140 murders. By 1964, when there were only 15 executions, the number of murders had risen to 9,250. In 1969, there were no executions and 14,590 murders, and 1975, after six more years without executions, 20,510 murders occurred rising to 23,040 in 1980 after only two executions since 1976. In summary, between 1965 and 1980, the number of annual murders in the United States skyrocketed from 9,960 to 23,040, a 131 percent increase. The murder rate -- homicides per 100,000 persons -- doubled from 5.1 to 10.2. So the number of murders grew as the number of executions shrank. Researcher Karl Spence of Texas A&M University said"

What this jackass of a "researcher DOES NOT include is that there were TWO sets of states, one which had death penalty and those that did not. The result of this so called "experiment" was that states with the death penalty had crime rates that increased or decreased at the same general rate as those states with out it &endash; both before and after the moratorium- the main difference was/is that states WITHOUT the death penalty had a lower murder rate over all. Then too, YOU could look at which states execute more and which states have the highest murder rates. The state holding the record for executions is Texas, the state with one of the worst murder rates overall is, you guessed it, Texas. That statistic has been around in the press for some time,

I am surprised you haven't read about it.

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Then, DG, you do go on:

You will see that monsters who have been set free thanks to our incompetent justice system and organizations like yours, only commit more murders against children. I do not know how you can read that line "murder children" and sit there and say these monsters do not deserve to die, painfully in my opinion. You say who gives us the right to kill a killer, it is called the law. Simple, you murder someone, then you are put to death, you are not killing someone, I am not killing someone, the LAW is. And you really think in this day and age, with all our technology and DNA testing that an innocent person would be put to death? It seems here you are the " Jackass".

DB's reply::

You also said at the beginning that 7 our of 10 murderers are released and that they go on to murder again. That is simply not true. I think it is 8 out of 10 that are released and NO they don't all go and murder again. They may do other things but that is just off the wall jackass thinking. Besides with the idea that I have, and which you have not addressed a with, no one guilty of murder would be released unless my strenuous conditions are met, look back at the letter and read about that. I believe that a person should PAY for their crime and that execution is just an "easy out". Besides we have had to many persons released from death row or who have been found guilty of a murder only to be released because of DNA evidence.

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Then DG put in links:

In the last 2 weeks in the news: http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/01/13/bridge.deaths.ap/index.html http://www.local6.com/news/15027996/detail.html

The second link was one you already sent and the second one returned an error. I do not argue with you that these persons are horrible, heinous and, dare I say, evil. What I disagree with is letting them off easy as YOU want to. I say, MAKE THEM PAY &endash; literally and physically.

DG continues on:

I do not know if you are a father or not, but i'm asking you to read those 2 articles with your heart and sit there and tell me these monsters do not deserve to be put to death? No excuse here, they did it, they admitted they did it, one for fame and the other because his baby girl was not a boy. SO whats your reasoning now why they should only get life, and end up getting a shorter sentence, due to appeals, good behavior, or over crowded jails?

DB's reply:

Did you not read the first letter that I sent you? Are you a complete buffoon? I told you why I would not want the man, horrific and twisted as he might be, executed. Because that is letting him off EASY and he will never, ever PAY for what he did. What in God's name is wrong with you? YOU are the one who is saying, in effect, "Let's spend millions on this murdering bum, take care of him medically, psychologically and physically, give him all his rights and then safely, quietly, surgically put him to sleep. WHAT THE HELL IS UP WITH THAT? Why shouldn't he work his life away in whatever sweat hole available until the woman and her family and all involved have had their needs paid for by his work? Those people need counseling, there should be prayers offered, there should be other kind of help, but what DO YOU SUGGEST? Just kill him and that's it.

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DG write:

I know you will give me the same answer based on the same statistics from years ago when we did not have the technology we have today or give me the same cliché lines, who are we to kill another human being, we are not god, etc.

Like I said before this world is going to shit, thanks to people like you and your organizations. These monsters will always feel they have an opportunity to get away with these unspeakable crimes against our children. I do not see how any parent can be a part of your type of organizations.

DB's reply:

Well you were obviously wrong, again. I did not give you the crap you expected. The technology as you put it "that we have today" has shown that the justice system has put persons on death row who do not belong there. Recently the governor of Ohio took everyone on their death row off because he found the system so flawed he could not trust that the persons on the row should have been there. Or didn't you read that. Didn't you read that there is a federal law, recently enacted that enables any prisoner at risk of execution to have the DNA evidence of his or her case checked. Now, dear boy, THINK why would they need a law like that? Because the TECHNOLOGY of today has found that the justice system has not and is not working very well.

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DG wrote:

Our childrens future is getting dimmer day by day, headline by headline. And no one is fighting for them.

DB's reply:

I am a teacher. I see wonder stories and horror stories every year. I also do not have children. I made that choice years ago when the world, even to my relatively innocent eyes was heading in the wrong direction.

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DG wrote:

Quote of the day: "I will defend my children with my life and my own hands, since there is no longer justice in this world." ---Joseph Manning, FL

DB's reply:

I can understand that sentiment; it is too bad that such is the case. I see some terrible things and could tell you stories. Wait, I'll tell you one. I had a second grade child in one of my classes. He came back from "Winter Break" and was desultory and seemed to be, as we teachers say, disengaged. He got visibly upset when the class, being offered a chance to choose a topic to write about had chosen to write "My Christmas Holliday". Well, he'd been a student with low academics so I began to help him. But he ran out of the room and I had to call for assistance to find him.

What was wrong? Well this seven year old had had a bad Christmas. He had seen his father kill his older teenage daughter in their living room because he had gotten her pregnant and wouldn't "do anything about it." Well, who'd have thought anything like that?

Anyway … life goes on.

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Letter number three, the exchange

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I see you result to more insults, yes my emails have been on the grammatical error side do to the fact I type them fast and while in anger, so I guess that is the more important issue here, my misspellings and misplacement of a comma.

DB's Reply

You mean "resort" as in "you resort to more insults. I MUST point out that you began this correspondence with name-calling and insults. YOU began your very first communication with the following: "you people make me sick to my stomach, I hope there is a special hell for you un moral heartless, soulless monsters who fight for these monsters." Those are your first words to me.

You try to excuse your poor communication skills by saying you type your letters when you are angry. USE a spell check, learn to spell, slow down, cool off and then, THEN, maybe, think.

Then you TRY to make it sound as if I am criticizing your grammar as if it is an issue of more importance than the considerations regarding the death penalty. I point them out because they are annoying, evidence a lack of professionalism and demonstrate a careless and lazy attitude. If you are going to argue and make a point, speak clearly, effectively and avoid the kind of mistakes that will have people laugh at you. You will hardly do your cause well by speaking poorly, choosing incorrect words or not being clear. You also do not serve your cause by beginning a discussion with name-calling and insults. As I said in the beginning, since you've decided that name-calling and other insults are fine then they must be fine for myself as well. So don't start putting out a whining, crybaby attitude as you are the "injured party". If you start a fight you should expect your victim to strike back in kind.

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DG writes

I can see it is no use talking to people like you, I will pull ONE, line you wrote, just one that shows me there is no hope for this world. You wrote:

"You also said at the beginning that 7 our of 10 murderers are released and that they go on to murder again. That is simply not true. I think it is 8 out of 10 that are released and NO they don't all go and murder again. "

So it is ok if only 1 or 2 end up committing more murders or worse murder, rape, torture of our innocent children. That's ok right, because at least the other 6 only committed misdemeanors. All we had to pay was another childs life.

I do agree with you that they should suffer, but you and I know that will not happen, plainly seen in your comment above "8 out of 10 are released". And do you not think sitting in a cell waiting for the day you are to be executed is torture in of itself, I am sure it is. Now you have death row inmates appealing the death penalty because they say the lethal injection is to inhuman but the murder they committed was not? You say they should suffer, but still fight against the death penalty because you your organizations bring up that it is inhuman, is that not contradicting yourself?

DB's reply:

I WAS trying to be a bit facetious with the 8 out of 10, but that is the figure I have seen often enough in stories covering this issue. And no not even or two of the 8 commit more murders. The stats are not good on that score. And maybe the others do go onto misdemeanors or other petty crimes. Do not forget YOUR error in the your original claim which demonstrated your

ignorance of the facts and denial of reality &endash; a mark of the unstable mind. However, many of those released to go on to further crimes but that is another issue &endash; and yes the inability to distinguish issues is another sign of a mind not very well trained in any kind of disciplinary thinking. Not that I am an expert.

Also, lest you be mistaken, which you seem to be over and over, particularly about the suffering. It may not have been clear to you but what I want is for them to make full restitution and for them to fully pay their debt to society. The means I would like to have them use to this are difficult, hard, harsh and nearly unforgiving. This would result in their suffering. Which is appropriate for it WOULD have a deterrent effect. However, I don't want them to just "simply suffer" that would, again, be to easy and allow them to wallow in their own misery and then "give up" and not make the amends they should. So, as you can see, we don't quite agree about "suffering."

But you persist in erroneous thinking when you add on " All we had to pay was another childs life" It is as if you are saying that all these released persons go out and kill children. That is just not so. Wake up and smell the coffee buddy.

Then too another point you seem to have missed AGAIN is, with what I suggest, there would be no parole. The garbage, as you might refer to it, is to be kept in the can and is not let out save under especial circumstances, which I've partly described in other letters. But I would have to guess that you FORGOT that point AGAIN because of what you wrote.

And I DON'T LIKE IT WHEN YOU PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH. So DON'T strongly imply that I have, in my letters to you, described the method of lethal injection as being inhuman. I have not said that. So if you are hearing voices or reading words that are not there you'll have to excuse me for wondering what kind of pills you are on. Of course this may be just another example of your being unwilling to face any kind of facts. Why don't you just go back to arguing with your walls or agreeable friends who, being agreeable, do not bother to check their logic or bother to use it at all.

I fight against the death penalty: BECAUSE IT DOES NOT WORK. WILL YOU EVER WAKE UP? Quit making things up.

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Painfully, you continue your drooling, stuttering stammer of broken thoughts:

DG wrote:

And please do not bring up the money issue, that really pisses me off, I would gladly pay more in taxes if it would assure the death penalty would be handed down to every murder, child murderer today. I will take the money to the government myself, I will pull the switch or inject the needle, and give these monster what they deserve. You bringing up money as an issue just sickens me and anyone who brings it up whether for or against the death penalty really needs to do some soul searching.

DB's makes a boringly staid retort:

YOU ARE an ASS. I TOLD you why the money issue was mentioned: BECAUSE people from YOUR side of the debate constantly bring it up. ITS YOUR SIDES talking point. Don't blame me for putting it in the debate it's been there thanks to those that agree with you.

Also, you would LOVE to live in communist China and Saudi Arabia wonderful nations both of them. They are the only nations who execute at greater rate than we do. So you'd have the US follow in their footsteps?

How wonderful would that be? Is that what you'd want to replace our justice system? Also, again from Texas, the word is that the persons who actually do the executing, as you say you want to, do not last long at the job. The turnover for executioners is a problem for the Texas prison system because of the stress it causes the person who "does it". You wouldn't last long. No one, it seems, does.

DG, says, still soldiering on:

Lastly I do not need your sympathy for my children nor do they need it from you, they have me, and I will prepare them for this world and all the dangers and horrible people in, and teach them to fight for what is right, unlike what your organizations do.

DB's wearily replies:

Your children need all the sympathy they can get. I can give them all that I want to and do of my own free will. You are not preparing them for this world if your thinking skills are being exemplified by your so-called argumentation. They'll need logic and reasoning to make it in a universe that has such things as some of its fundamentals. You will, therefore, be crippling them and disabling them and making it harder for them to succeed. But, I guess no one's going to tell you anything. You have a mind like a steel trap and its is shut.

You are not teaching them to fight for what is right. The number of "advanced nations" who have eliminated the death penalty out numbers those that have it. So you are teaching them what is wrong. Of course you COULD always look to the bible and see somewhere inside that it says: Thou shalt not kill. But for you, that is besides the point.

Then, DG, You DO go on…

I refrained from name insults in this email, unlike you, which shows the closed, one track minded people running your organization, oh well I tried to refrain. But who can after reading your emails filled with empty reasoning, cliche lines, and not one bit of morals attached to it. People like you really need to see pictures of these murdered children, that are murdered, or raped and then murdered like I always had to when I was a cop and maybe you will feel it in your heart, your soul and know the right thing to do is rid this world of these monsters to protect our children.

DB laughs and replies;

You have not refrained from insults. You began your correspondence with them. You BEGAN with name-calling. I only communicated, AS I HAVE SAID in line with your "style".

You say you "tried to refrain"? Not in your first letter. How can you possibly call: "you people make me sick to my stomach, I hope there is a special hell for you un moral heartless, soulless monsters who fight for these monsters." As refraining from insulting or name-calling? Do you NOT KNOW YOUR OWN WORDS? DO YOU NOT RECALL?

And then, DG, goes "on" again, with a link.

here is another one for you: http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/01/14/bodies.found.ap/index.html

this one it was their own mother who killed all 4 of them. There is no hope for this world. Thank you for pushing it along. I am sure the Devil is applauding you and your organizations. Stand up and take a bow.

DB's response:

I heard about this story, or read about one just as bad. There are worse.

What is the use of referring to such stories? They only prove, as you do, that society is going bad and that there is no hope for this world. And while I agree with the first part of that, I disagree with the second. Yes, the world is going through some bad times, but there always, ALWAYS is hope. I mean why would you bring children into a hopeless world? Why would you use that special and precious love that God gave humans and create living beings that you cherish - only to have them find a world of hopelessness? That, my dear friend, is particularly sick. But maybe you don't think that deeply, eh?

Then too, what escapes you is what that means. If the world is going crazy then its people are going crazy too. If the people are going crazy because of the world, society and such like then it would be a surprise if we did NOT have such terrible acts. But to compound the error with executions is just nonsensical, I mean really.

Try to get some rest. Think about what you are doing to yourself when you claim you WANT to be the one flipping the switch or doing the injection. Is that what you want to talk to your children about? You'd be able to look into their eyes and talk about what you do for a living? Do you have any idea what that would DO to them?

No, my friend, my system has no fatal errors in it. If the court system makes a mistake, with my system, all a person would loose is some time. With yours they could loose their life.

Please use your head for something else besides a hat rack.

Oh, one thing more, I usually only argue the death penalty with points concerning it. I have never before mentioned what I would substitute it with. And although I have not gone on with details, and I probably won't, I have to say your letters have brought some of that out. I find that interesting. Touché …Meiter VanDen Boogardenvredenhaamptensftuffendenpantz

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Letter number four, the exchange

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DG wrote:

You say my mind is like a steal trap, lol, I am very open minded but I can see you are not, because you still fall back to the same statistics, it does not work lines. The death penalty does work, because it stops that monster from committing another murder against innocent defenseless children or anyone for that matter. And do not give me that they should get life in prison, suffer and pay back to society, because you gave me the statistic already 8 out 10 are usually set free.

DB wearily but willingly replies:

First, when you write: "you still fall back to the same statistics, it does not work lines." I have to admit I am confused because that statement is not a statistic, statistics involve numbers. Where did you go to school?

Nest while executing a criminal may prevent that one criminal from killing again this argument fails because it implies that the future can be read with a certainty equal to the certainty of death following execution. It cannot be read. Secondly, a main argument against the death penalty is that it is a deterrent to future crime, but it clearly does not deter criminals from murdering. Take, for example, the stories that so shocked you. Do you think, for one minute that those persons are EVER saying to themselves, "Gee, I'd better not be doing this horrible act because I could be executed"

No, and neither do I. The vast majority of murderers are impaired, one-way or another, at the time of their deeds. They are drunk, high, extremely angry, depressed or mentally deficient in some fashion. The other side of the coin is that they are calculating and determined. On both sides of that coin you have to see that deterrence is not on their minds at all at the time they do their evil act. Sociopaths and psychopaths have no compunction to follow social norms anyway. So deterrence does not apply to them. And then there is the irony, the death penalty stops killing by killing. That is much like having sex to protect virginity.

You are not open-minded. Proof of that fact is that whenever I have successfully destroyed your argument you usually ignore it or simply repeat that same old obsolete information and behave as if I have not written you.

While it is true that executing one person will prevent that one person from killing again

You know you are such an ignorant idiot that it is fascinating. Do you EVER read what I write? I SAID that MY IDEA would be that there would be NO PAROLE for murderers. GET THAT THROUGH your THICK addlepated mind! So your complaint, which implies that with MY idea that 8 out of 10 would be set free, is just plain WRONG. I am beginning to think that you like being proven wrong so often.

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DG, going on:

And while you say they do not commit murder, well they already did and there is no forgiveness in my heart for monsters that prey on innocent children. And yes I would be that man to pull the switch, inject the needle, and I would do it every time with a smile knowing I rid this world of a sick monster(i guess I am a "soldier" in that aspect), unlike you I will fight for what is right for our children even if it means I have to take that burden on my shoulders of executing these monsters no matter what stress it may cause me. AND THOSE ARE NOT JUST EMPTY TYPED WORDS.

DB's reply:

Oh when will you wake up? Your own argument is talking about what they will do, not what they did. Your confused and tortuous thinking is a real puzzlement. I was saying that once they are released they do not again revert to killing at the rate you suggested, which was 8 out of 10. Your own words had that error clearly spelled out. THAT is simply not the case. Maybe you should read your own letters before misquoting yourself, in a sense.

Then you DO go on. I guess you put yourself above God because you know all and see all more and thus can decide matters of life and death as well as he. And you would not be the forgiving God so often quoted in the bible.

You are not a soldier. You clearly have never been in battle. You have never seen death close up and personal. You speak so lightly of pulling a switch or injecting a needle. You don't know fighting. You are a sideline observer &endash; at best, AT BEST! And your words are empty typed words. You have not closed the eyes of friend. You have not stuffed the guts back into a man's abdomen. You have not put someone into a body bag. You are a sadly contemptible nothing when it comes to soldiering.

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You DG, still manage to continue, somehow:

There is no point replying to you anymore because you will just break apart each paragraph in my email and give absorb comments with elaborate words that you think I may not comprehend because of my fast, anger filled typed emails, rather than talk about the issue. Maybe 20 lines at most out of your last reply actually discussed the issue at hand.

DB's reply:

This is the second time you've said talking to me is pointless, well if it is why did this letter come? Do you like being raked over your own coals, hoist upon your own petard? Is that it?

I do break apart your paragraphs because there are so many errors in each and every one of them. I have to say that your writing has improved and that makes it easier for me to understand what you try to say, so thank you for that. You are wrong again when you say "maybe 20 lines at most … actually discussed the issue at hand. Arguably it was nearly each and every sentence related to the topic. If you do not write clearly or express yourself clearly in a debate or argument you leave yourself open for criticism whether it is from your opposition or from those listening.

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DG does go on:

Again, last time, do not mention my children in your emails please, like I said they do not need your sympathy, someone who would rather see a child murderer just get life with 3 meals a day, recreation time and a chance to be set free (remember 8 out of 10). They will be prepared with knowledge, reasoning, and they will be stand up human beings. Their Grandmother is a teacher as well in NY, I am a former cop, now turned web designer/programmer, their mother is a wonderful woman who does not take shit from anyone, so as you can see they will be filled with a wealth of knowledge, morals, and strength. So again, please do not mention them again in any sort of sympathetic way.

Here is another statistic for you:

http://www.kitv.com/news/15078174/detail.html <--headline today on cnn.com <http://cnn.com> if you do not see link, man throws baby from freeway ram, baby gets run over by cars dies.........................year later man only gets life no chance of parol, 20 yrs later he is one of the out of ten, and the baby never even got a chance to laugh and play. Last 2 lines I added of course.

DB's reply:

Well, that was a loaded paragraph:

If you don't want me to mention your children in my emails to you, don't mention them in yours to mine. You brought them up and related them to your argument. They are, according to what you said, part of the reason you believe as you do. You have, therefore made them a part of the argument.

Every time you bring them up, therefore, I am free to as well. So, I do believe they need sympathy and I can harbor that for them. I can harbor a love and respect for you. I can care that you find your way to an opening in your heart and mind that allows you to grow and become the full human being that everyone deserves to be.

Again you impute that I believe that murders should be set free. I don't; the current system does. Why do you continue to confuse my arguments with those of other persons? Why can't you deal with what I am saying instead of putting the words of others in MY mouth?

Again you ignore what I would like to see when you simply focus on one small portion of my idea, that of prisoners getting their meals and exercise and such like. Well, in case you hadn't noticed, that is what happens now.

That is what happens in the years it takes to execute them. What I want is absolutely no parole, until, when and if, certain criteria are met. And, yes, I have spoken of them in other letters to you.

How can you speak of your children saying, "They will be filled with a wealth of knowledge, morals, and strength. when you also say: "And yes I would be that man to pull the switch, inject the needle, and I would do it every time with a smile knowing I rid this world of a sick monster " Like I said you would be tucking in your child and telling them about your work day? I can't imagine it, really &endash; can you? REALLY?

Thanks for the link, but you said "statistic" this is a story, not a statistic. A statistic looks like this: 5 out of 10 doctors are worried about law suits and the improper filing of insurance claims, or this, Hillary Clinton's acceptability among democratic voters is at 42%.

Yes the guy is a horrific person &endash; a terrible person for killing so wantonly if that was what happened and I am accepting what you say of the story when I say that. Just as an "acid test" for you. I have to ask. So, how do you feel about the tens of thousands of dead, innocent babies, which were killed by the policy of the US government in Iraq? Do you have any consideration for them? Do you want to kill the "monsters" as you call them?

I'm just asking, is all.

****************

(I wrote the last paragraph above before reading what you wrote here, looks like we have some pages that are alike:)

DG wrote:

We see these headlines and I am sure it makes you sick, no doubting that, but what about the hundreds of children being slaughtered, forced to be sex slaves, and worse around the world, in places like Dafur (I hope you read about), China, and many other 3rd world countries. My point is no one is helping these children, their a headline for one day on cnn, nbc, and every other news site and channel looking for a story. We are the ones who should fight for them, we are here to protect them, but yet so many of us choose to spend our energy fighting for the wrong things, such as abolishing the death penalty.

DB's reply:

Well, maybe I spoke to soon. Dear boy, you are so vastly in the wrong that it is humorous. I am sure to include these "arguments" in my writings on this topic though I don't think you'd want to be quoted and named, am I right? No fear, I don't do that with persons unless they make public statements on this subject on the web and expect to have "incoming".

I do read the news and am in the process of archiving stories and evidence, which demonstrate the monstrous and horrifically criminal nature of our current government. I do focus on the man I mockingly refer to as the "Global Village Idiot" but then there are other concerns as well. As to the millions of children that need help around the world the US government is an agent of very poor policies as well as a few good ones. The cigarette companies, which have trouble in the US keeping up sales are welcomed overseas and the World Health Organization has estimated that in the next decade we will begin to see the fruits of that effort when the estimated 10 to 15 million deaths a year begin to show up in the worlds statistical records. That is just one example. We'll have much to answer for if we are ever held to account.

****************

DG does write on:

These monsters who prey on defenseless children deserve to be put to the death for the simple fact you and I know that they will not suffer in our today's justice system. Honestly I am done, because your unmoral views will not change and you will not change my view either. You will not understand because you do not have children, how it hurts when you see them in pain, crying because they are sick, crying because they ate something with milk when they are allergic and have to rush them to the hospital(things I deal with), and then those parents who basically die inside when they find out their child has been murdered. This is something you will not feel or understand, so your view on the death penalty to me has no substance, no morals, no ounce of true heart felt cause to protect our children who are preyed upon every day. And being a teacher is not the same thing at all as having children if you bring up that point.

DB's reply;

You may, of course, keep to your view, unfortunate as that is. We both agree that the current system is not adequate to the task. You have your so called "fix" which is to execute thousands a year &endash; if, as you've implied, that you would like to see every killer executed, and I have mine, keeping them "on ice" as it were and forcing them to ameliorate their damage to society.

You say I will not understand because I do not have children and you deny that being a teacher allows me to be sensitive to the issue. Well deny what you might and ignore what you want, you are free to do so. It is just as likely that your having children blinds you to the issue and all its concerns as well. You write as if I have no sensitivity or regard for a child's feelings or needs, but I do. No matter any bit of reality you may deny at your whim. You can afford to.

You go on about how I cannot understand and so my arguments have no substance, morals or ounce of true heart, well, I am not the one who is willing to kill for their beliefs, kill absolute strangers buy flipping a switch or pushing in the needle, am I? You are however willing to do that, and more, so you say, by setting yourself up as a being superior to God. And being a teacher is relevant, I do have children for six hours a day and for the last 20 years. It allows me to know what love, tough love and pure kindness is. But you are free to ignore anything &endash; even reality itself as our great and wonderful Global Village Idiot is &endash; and for the same reason: because he can.

****************

DG, an attempt at closure:

Thank you for your emails, even though majority of it centered around insults and picking apart my grammar, and yes I did throw the first blow, the first insult:

"you people make me sick to my stomach, I hope there is a special hell for you un moral heartless, soulless monsters who fight for these monsters ...."

But honestly this is not an insult, it is a description of the cause you and organizations like yours fight for. No matter what you say, "you do not fight for them, you want them to suffer, etc., etc." in the end you fight for them because in the end it ends up being 8 out of 10 and then tomorrow we see another Murdered child headline, my bad a statistic, that's all they are right?

P.S. Hopefully once I can get my project site up to bring more attention to this topic by posting these headlines of murdered children everyday and following up on them unlike other news sites, maybe then people will join in fighting for our children, I can only hope and pray. Just tired of seeing these children being murdered, it just is not right, these monsters deserve to die, just not right.

DB's reply, again covering ground already covered.

A majority of the communication I sent was relevant to the topic. Count the sentences if nothing else and you will see. Do a tally sheet and compare, I did, just for the heck of it.

"you people make me sick" is an insult. "you un moral heartless soulless monsters who fight … " That is name-calling. It is not a description of the cause when you put the word "you" in it and are specifically writing to me. HELLO. And then you go back the ridiculous 8 out of 10 notion. Oh well, live well and prosper, as Spock would say.

As to the P.S. To each his own as they say. Perhaps you effort, in some mysterious fashion will help reform the law &endash; anything, even miracles, are possible. I do not enjoy reading about these horrific events any more than you do. However, as one who has been documenting the horrors of this administration, I caution you to anticipate the stress that simply reading the stories will cause. If you are serious about archiving such horrors realize that you will be affected by simply reading them and or seeing pictures.

I will close by returning the thanks for having this discussion. You were the first to have me talk about what my alternative to the death penalty would be. Usually I only argue against it on its own merits. You, however, had me bring in the alternative, or at least part of it. In that sense I considered your presentation effective and determined.

Thanks again.

Pietroff Von Hindenberg

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Letter number five, the exchange

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Re: Ltr One:

DG wrote:

While you compared me to the "Village Idiot", woops i put quotes in wrongs locations, just to let you know, I am an educated man with 2 BA degrees in Marketing, and Computer Science. I admit my response emails, may not have been well thought out and I have repeated myself many times while probably, yes ignoring things you did say. Reason being, is honestly I did not read all of your emails, only scanned through them to see your points, and in the end only one point matters, you will fight against the Death Penalty.

DB's reply:

Thank you for the items in this first paragraph; they do explain why I did repeat myself because you skimmed the information in my letters. It would have been more efficient had you gone through them, however that is water under the proverbial bridge.

You and I must both know people who are college educated but woefully incapable of arguing a point, debating and supporting interlaced logical facts to create an opinion. Such persons are often without common sense or basic life skills, overall. My mom called such persons "college educated jackasses".

You have seen such persons. I know a number of them. We both have college experiences to our credit and thus are capable of engaging in discussions with some degree of sense

DG: wrote:

I admit your alternative is one I would accept, if it would happen in today's justice system, but tell me this, why doesn't your website that you are affiliated with instead fight against Death Penalty fight for that alternative, Market that for of justice if you will, the many anti capital punishment websites I have researched and read, do only one thing, emphasize their reasons for the death penalty to be abolished. They rarely talk about an alternative that should be drawn up as a bill and presented to congress. I have never herd of this at all in the news, have you? Have you done it yourself, I think not. Instead like I stated in my previous email you spend your energy to abolish a form of justice while maybe it is not the solution, it is the solution now that we have that will rid us of these monster and guarantee they will not be set free to prey on our innocent children. Your alternative is not there, nor is anyone in your organization or organizations like yours pushing it on sites, campaigns, or any type of media outlet that people can hear and be influenced.

DB's reply:

I will tell you why I do not offer my alternative as part of my website and usual argumentation. If you have seen the movie Ghandi there is a scene where he speaks about how he'd rather have the English leave India. He said violence would force them out, that a small nation can never occupy a much, much larger one. But, he went on, he not only wanted them to leave India but he wanted them to change their minds in order to do so. That is what I want as well. I want to put all the arguments in favor of the death penalty to rest, before putting forth an alternative. If people's minds are not changed what is to prevent them from reinstituting capital punishment? Providing a good alternative is not enough. Therefore I work on the arguments first and then provide an alternative.

From a prior letter DB wrote:

To which DG: replies:

I would not be killing absolute strangers, ad I would love my fellow stranger, but I will be killing monsters, and I will always hold hate and anger for any child murdering scumbag. I do not claim to be superior to God, but remember even God himself passed judgment in the form of death when he sent the floods.

DB replies:

Stranger is a person that you do not know and have never met. None of the guards currently executing prisoners have any relation to those they execute save on the day of the execution. They are perfect strangers to each other.

If you claim the right to kill others you are taking God's power as your own.

Yes, God may have "executed" those who were doing evil, but that is God's doing and actions, not those of man. We could argue endlessly about the confusions and contradictions in the Bible, or indeed, any of the texts sacred to any of the great faiths but the point is you claim that you can be an executioner and decide life and death. That is gods realm, truly and fairly.

The commandment says "Thou shalt not kill". It doesn't say, "We shalt not kill." So God seems to reserve his ultimate sanction for himself. At least in the commandments. And yes we could both find ample samples in the Bible that would go either way. Then too, there is another issue, the Constitution of these United States has it that there is a separation between church and state and so, it really does not, or rather should not matter what the Bible says regarding the death penalty because this is an issue that should not be influenced by religious beliefs. If we were just considering a moral position it would be OK, but when discussing US law and practices it is not at all appropriate, however, again, I do get many arguments based on Biblical entries and suffice it to say the Bible provides many passages that persons from both sides of the debate can call on for support of their position.

DG writes:

But on the God topic, I am a believer, but in reality, you nor I knows if he or Jesus Christ really ever existed, we believe, but we were not there, and all we know is what we have read in books, been taught by our parents, and in churches. You do not know who has written the bible and it has been passed down for centuries, to compare, you could form a line of 100 students, tell the first one a 5 line short story, he then has to repeat it to the next, and then continue down the line, one telling the next, do you not think that story will be distorted by the end?

DB replies:

Yes there was a grand meeting in the 400's or so, The Council of Niccocia, you'll have to pardon the spelling for I've never seen the spelling, but in sum it was a meeting where the current Bible has its roots. At that meeting many "books" in the bible were tossed out, others were rewritten and organized from what I understand. It was an attempt to standardize the Bible for the church at that time. This was done 400 years or so after anyone associated with Jesus had died.

DG writes;

MY POINT, is God is a belief, religion is a belief, and they should not be used as a weapon against deciding if capital punishment should be used, because that is a matter of what is right and what is wrong, not what you believe in, not your religion. And murdering innocent children is just wrong, the worst crime you can ever commit. Simple you commit murder you are executed.

DB replies:

Well, not so simple, one of the commandments has it the other way. Also many passages regarding an all forgiving God and so forth. Then too the fact that we separate church and state in the US. But those comments have been made before. No use going on about them.

DG writes:

And honestly I do not think any statistics against the Death Penalty in the U.S. holds any credit, because we do not use it as much as we should on the thousands of murders so therefore how are we really to see the results, how will we see if it deters other criminals from thinking of committing murders? I guarantee you execute every murderer for 6mths straight and I bet you will see a decline in murder crimes. You are a logical man, think about it, off course every execution would have to be announced on every local media outlet, radio, news, web. But we will never see this, because of our screwed up Justice system and crooked lawyers who rather make a dollar bringing up appeal after appeal to defend child murder who has been found 100% guilty.

DB replies:

You would want to try the "experiment" of executing every convicted murderer you would want to try the "experiment" of executing every convicted murderer? This would mean, think on it now, thousands of executions a year, perhaps tens of thousands, if you consider vehicular homicide, drunken driving, all the handgun killings, and so forth. Consider the murder rate in the US and then do the math. Consider the murder rate in the US and then do the math. Yes, it would be a way of finding out, once and for all, whether or not the so-called "eye for an eye" would work. But the cost would be tremendous and I am not talking about the trials, I'd presume that there would be some means of "speeding up the process and reducing costs, but our relations with the world would suffer, the US would suffer sanctions from such "liberal" nations as China or Saudi Arabia and we'd be alone and unique in the world, if not world history by following such a program. We'd suffer grandly, not that such suffering, if for a right cause would be reason to abandon it. But then we'd have to have a moral government in the first place, so...

Also, such a system would not eliminate murder. Consider, would it eliminate substance abuse? Would it eliminate poverty? Would it eliminate rage and intolerance? Would it eliminate the simple jealousy or greed that prompts some to plan and premeditate a murder? No. It would not eliminate the causes of most murders. Remember most murders are committed by persons who are in some way impaired. The raging wife beater, the out of control drunk or drug abuser, the jilted lover, the greedy son or daughter who wants to inherit wealth in a hurry, the racist or sectarian who want to eliminate their enemy. All of these would remain probable even with such a system in place.

DG wrote:

To end, you admit our justice system is screwed up, and it is, so why do you fight against the one thing that may give our children some kind of fight for their future? I just hope you redirect your energy and instead of fighting against a form of justice that works, fight that your alternative is implemented, but I highly doubt you will.

Just to give u an update on one of the links I sent you:

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/01/20/bridge.deaths.ap/index.html <-- 4 more statistics, he gets to live and have breakfast lunch and dinner, the children did not even get a chance to be a child and enjoy life, to much pain in this world, and not enough willing to fight for what is right to protect out children. Instead we fight for our beliefs and what we think the justice should be, not what is right to protect our children, I say that again, you fight for your belief, not what is right to protect our children.

DB replies:

Yes the justice system is, in at least one real sense, broken. It has not managed to eliminate murders. That would be a measure of its success.

Ultimately the function of the justice system is to reduce crime so much so that it "goes out of business". But, the death penalty as it is and the alternate you suggest, killing all killers, would not achieve what you want, what I want and that is a safe place for people to live and raise children in a civil society.

I do, therefore, fight for what is best and what will produce that effect. Since the death penalty as it is and the alternate you suggest will not achieve what we both want, then alternatives must be sought. My alternative would remove killers from society permanently, as would yours, however, mine would not have the risk of executing an innocent and further, once execution is "off the table" then the justice system would be forced to continually check itself and remove errors or fix problems that cause those errors. Also, persons would have the chance at "paying back", to the extent humanly possible, the debt their egregious acts against society demand.

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2 other letters, related to the main set of letters, the exchanges

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From DG:

Another one, this one happened a few mths back:

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/palmbeach/sfl-flpmemorial0121pnjan21,0,4510809.story?coll=sofla_tab01_layout <http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/palmbeach/sfl-flpmemorial0121pnjan21,0,4510809.story?coll=sofla_tab01_layout>

Read it, mother and daughter, innocent, killed for a few hundred dollars, yes the article is about their memorial location, but that is not why I am sending you that link. The fact that you hear a mother and daughter, tied up and executed, that alone should stir something in your heart, if not i feel for you.

Let me ask you something, if someone ran into your class room, threatening the lives of your students, ones you say are like your children, would you not defend them if it even means taking that would be murders life?

DB replies:

Egregious, horrific, sick and disgusting acts will are not and cannot alter the logic of the situation. Each and every such case is evidence that the deterrent effect of Capital Punishment does not work with the current system in the US.

The supposition you state essentially boils down to this: would I protect a loved one or other innocent from murderous assault. The quick and simple answer is yes I would. I would intervene. If that intervention drew upon me the murderous intent of such an individual I would then defend myself as a means of defending those originally targeted by the would be murderer.

This is not the same thing as a legal execution. It is not morally the same, as I would be attempting to defend an innocent. I am legally charged, in my job as a teacher, to render aid and act "in place of parents". And so I would defend them to the best of my ability.

If the defensive struggle then became one of life and death I would be forced to take up that challenge and defend myself. If, in the struggle, it became clear that my life was in danger I would defend it. If it became clear, just to complete your query, that only by ending the attackers life could I be sure of saving my own or those of others, I would be forced to make that attempt.

In a life and death struggle, one looses one sense of logic and one responds on an emotional and physical level and one "looses control" of ones actions. And thus one is "forced" to act in ways contrary to sense, logic and law. I would still have to face the consequences of my actions, an investigation would be done and I would have to explain what happened, believe me.

All that said, such a situation has nothing whatever to do with the legality or morality of capital punishment. Self-defense is a well-established concept of both moral and legal standing - even in the mind of a murderer. The concept of executing a person who had murdered is no longer well established in the moral and legal procedures in nations around the world.

If, as I have been asked before, would I want to kill someone who had horribly murdered someone dear to my, my wife, mother, sister or brother I'd be hard pressed to say what I'd do until such a terrible situation appeared but that doubt has in it the possibility that I would seek vengeance as you or anyone might call it.

But then what would happen? I'd be placed on trial. I'd be held. It is for just this reason that we have laws. To kill such a person would be taking the law into my own hands and if that were allowable we'd have even more murder and violence &endash; not less. So despite how I might feel, despite what I or my other relatives might want &endash; I'd rather defer to the law than simply take someone's life myself. It would be wrong no matter how badly justice might be served by the system which we both agree needs to be fixed. Two wrongs, as my mom used to say, don't make a right.

*******************************************************

DG writes:

Another statistic for you: leaves behind 2 children. 2 children who will not hear their mothers comforting voice when they are sad or in pain. You claim to be so intelligent, and then use it to fight to implement your alternative instead of to abolish a method that will get these killers of our streets permanently.

DB replies:

Ok, a story is not a statistic. It could be a data point, perhaps but not a statistic.

Putting that aside, I'll tell you that I do not care how egregious someone's horrible, god awful, bad, terrible nightmarish, ghoulish act might be. It does not condone another killing.

If Adolph Hilter himself had been captured alive at the end of WW2 after all he did, I would still insist that he be kept alive and healthy for as long as possible. I'd want everyone who had any reason to face him off to have a chance to do so, to vent completely. That should have been his fate, an endless series of face offs with the persons who suffered under his rule. Also, almost perversely, he could have been turned into a "money machine" and the funds thus generated could have been used, in some very small portion, to redress his crimes. Admittedly this is an extreme example but that is what I would have wanted. All the NAZI leaders should have been treated this way. All deposed dictators should be treated this was along with their minions. Of course this will not happen in my time.

I will fight for the alternative when the minds of people are ready to accept an alternative. They are not ready for it. To many want simply to kill killers. I take it as a sign of progress that you are able to see its value and that you were able to bring out portions of it.

Maybe it might not be so far away.

Thank you so much for writing.